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December 08, 2008

Comments

Dave Levy

When I was in BA working this past January, I asked once: What do you think of the government?
The response: "One never knows".

According to the Financial Times, Argentina's sovereign debt trades today with a yield of 29.86%. This yield has been that high for some time.

Imagine the US Treasury facing those yields while trying to bail out our financial system.

http://www.spreadsoncredit.com

John V

Why stop there? Give her hell up and down, Dr. Rodrik.

tom s.

I don't see the problem with her statement.

Some of the most inspiring events and actions take place in times of crisis - there is nothing odd about that. One can be inspired by the spirit of the blitz without wishing to be bombed. She was obviously captured by some of those events and actions - but I don't think she was wishing for crisis as a way of life.

Manuel

The great difference between Naomi Klein and us is that she earned dollars and we earned pesos. I would also feel great if I'm in a country where my purchasing power triples overnight.

Ah, by the way, the inspiring barters and square meetings lasted less than a semester, with 0 concrete impact. As soon as the economy recovered thanks to the real depreciation all the calls for change were over.


Anarcho

I think you have missed the point of her comments.

Klein was celebrating the fact that those people affected by the crisis took direct action to help themselves. They developed popular institutions and developed solidarity and mutual aid in the process.

They started to create something better than the system which caused economic collapse.

Which is her point.

Presumably, what the Argentine people should have done was simply have passively waited until their government acted and meekly accepted whatever costs the ruling elite decided was required to get neo-liberalism going again?

I fail to see that would have been a good thing to do. Perhaps you could explain why it would have been?

So, please, it is obvious that Klein is NOT celebrating the economic crisis. She is celebrating the popular response to that crisis.

EB

Some things are not very hard to understand :
Klein needs to grow up.

The fact that she rejoices only in times of chaos whether in Quebec or Argentina, that her latest book is nothing more than a pamphlet with zero intellectual honesty for the most basic historical facts (Tien an men protesters against Deng Xiao Ping's reforms?! where did she get that from?) are pretty good example of her immaturity and her disregard for reality.
Naomi Klein is just a member of one of the dominant (and perhaps the most influential) casts of society, one that seldom is held accountable, the reporting class, nothing more.

Per Kurowski

I don’t think there is anything wrong with Naomi Klein’s comments, as a tourist of disasters, looking at it all from her own political perspective. It reminds me of the following question which I have started to ask my friends. As you might see it might not only affect developed country activists but also developed countries development professors.

What impact on development could the asymmetry between NGOs have?

Is the asymmetry between the developing and the developed countries made worse because of the asymmetry between the weak and often subordinated NGO’s from developing countries and the strong and often in command NGO’s from the developed countries?

I say this because I have often found it so hard for activists from developing countries to understand that the stability they look for in their natural desire to keep all that they have gained under their belt, has nothing to do with the risk-taking a developing country needs in order to place at least something under its belt.

I have also often found that some agendas of the NGOs of developed countries, though most often certainly representing worthy causes, not only differ but can also turn into outright distractions from the more practical development agendas that NGOs from developing countries would wish to pursue, if on their own.

There are a lot of discussions about much needed governance reforms at the International Finance Institutions, the IFIs. Please remember that those reforms might have to include their relations with the NGOs too.

wjd123

We are in the second worst financial crises in America's history, yet people feel euphoric in the hope that at long last we have been freed from an insufferable weight.

The Republicans have been swept out of office, and Obama is president.

Yet euphoria is still not enough. Not when the people responsible for our sorry state are arguing about the size of their bonuses rather than worrying about the length of their prison terms.

I for one would love to see our housewives--better make that working wives or looking for work wives--gather up their brooms and mops and surround Wall Street.

Send a message to Obama that we are tired of the law working for those who would destroy society for their own gain. How can the law work when the same people responsible for protecting our society are the handmaids of the sociopaths that delivered us to this sorry state. They are all part and parcel of a power structure that needs to be changed.

These sociopaths have been protected far to long by Republican and Democrats alike. To expose them is to expose their political handmaids. That is why it is unlikely that we will ever get the emotional catharsis that justice under the law is supposed to provide. How could we when the guardians of society are in bed with the sociopaths.

To many people need a catharsis that the law won't provide.

Don't suffer in silence. Gather up your brooms and mops and surround our financial institutions. Use your purses as satchels. Fill them with eggs and lie in wait for the passing limousine of an unsuspecting CEO or Bush appointee.

Let Obama know that America isn't interested in a rapprochement with the bonus seekers. Fill your bosoms with the milk of punishment and justice and march.

Without a catharsis hatred will cloud reason.

American woman, show Obama that justice can't be skipped over. Go to your kitchens and arm yourselves. To the streets, to the barricades. Lead the way.


Our society wasn't brought to this sorry state by people doing their duty toward it.

Sérgio

Anarcho, it is more than clear that the "popular response" did not result in anything useful.

seth edenbaum

Project Censored's Top 25 censored stories from 2004

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/23-argentina-crisis-sparks-cooperative-growth/

"Argentina Crisis Sparks Cooperative Growth"

Look up "Worker-Recovered Enterprises"

Some things indeed are very hard to understand. To criticize a hope as unfounded (to argue that such movements fade etc.) is one thing. To not be able to read the words in front of you another.

Sebastian

In all fairness, there were also a decent amount of Argentine leftists who were excited about some of the things going on.
And I do think that the way the crisis was processed in Argentina does show a remarkable vibrancy of organizational and political life - the clubes de trueque, the asambleas de barrio, the fabricas recuperadas - all a lot better than either apathy or violence (sure there was violence, but given the proportions of the crisis, very limited).

Still - there's a difference between appreciating the remarkable response of many people to horrific economic circumstances and Klein's romanticizing.

What drives me up the wall even more, though, is her political naivite and inability to read any nuances.
This is true for her painting Friedman as the devil incarnate as much for her inability to see - or willing to address - any of the issues that were visible in the piquetero/recuperadas etc. movement from pretty early on.

m

It's not offensive that Klein enjoyed seeing people coming together to overcome a difficult situation - it's that she also enjoyed the falling apart of the government that cuased the crisis becuase she has a different political view to them.

Klein is very polarised and it appears that she enjoyed seeing a particular political movement embarassed so much that she was blind to the suffering.

seth edenbaum

Here's a review at the house of Henwood, http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Shock.html

Sandro Perricelli

Sometimes it has to be said: NK is a latte liberal that does not have a clue.

Bat-sh*t, mouth-foaming, crrraaazy Naomi Klein, dumber than her namesake Campbell.

r

Naomi probably only visited Recoleta, Palermo and all the "nice" places in the City of Buenos Aires. I lived most of my young life in a poor neighborhood in Buenos Aires, and I can tell you as a witness that the 2001 crisis was everything but beautiful. The only thing that really made people work together was looting. But Argentinians' ego is too big to recognize that.

Pepito

I've been hearing and reading a lot about the immensely talented Dani Rodrik for a while now. It's a pity that not being able to understand the difference between feeling inspired by the resourcefulness of ordinary people after an economic catastrophe and plain and simple Schadenfreude is not among those talents. Neither seems to be comprehending a very straight-forward and simple story.

Triple

Whose wallet ?

calmo

2002 man...
See a doctor about this fixation NOW!

green apron monkey

Some people hate certain institutions more than they love humanity.

IdahoSpud

If you don't understand the "euphoria" created by the reality of a government and its laws in shambles, its citizens in dire need and distress, clearly you have not read enough of Rand, nor have you embraced the Chicago School of Economic Principles.

*Shame on you* for having any sense of empathy for anyone but the over-taxed and maligned John Galt.

Remember the primary Milton Freidman Coda: Have no moral foundation. After freeing yourself of this, you can justify ANYTHING (including advising butchers such as Pinochet).

Luckybear

Klein is delusional. She thinks poverty and simplicity are romantic. She sees every conflict as connected somehow to profits and evil corporations.

This woman needs a reality check. Her book Shock Doctrine is utter nonsense. I can't stand her. The sad thing is people on the left think she is some kind of scholar. She can keep her dependency theory and Marxism. I'll take good old liberalism any day.

Hopefully Obama will keep these "progressives" (socialists) locked away. So far to good. Mostly liberal moderates.

seth edenbaum

Here you go
http://crookedtimber.org/2008/12/12/workers-republic/

"The Labor Beat video group is putting together a documentary about the victorious occupation of the Republic Windows and Doors factory in Chicago. The filmmakers were—unless I’m mistaken—the only media group given constant access to the inside of the factory during this action. They’ve put up a ten minute selection of footage on YouTube.
The reinvention of this tactic after more than half a century probably owes less to the historical memory of the union (considerable though that is in the case of UE) than to the example of actions in Brazil and Argentina that followed the slogan “Occupy, Resist, Produce.”


A little empathetic empiricism is in order. Emphasis on empiricism.

Robert Johnson

It appears that Dr. Rodrik is a humorist. Pretending that Klein is rejoicing in misery is a slick way to discredit her. That surprises me. Naomi Klein is in fact rejoicing in the prospect of of people rebelling against a corrupt society and corrupt government and corrupt international pressures that come from the very people that Dr. Rodrik himself protests, IMF, US Treasury etc. He knows that she is not rejoicing in their misery. To pretend that she does is disingenuous.

I wonder how Dr. Rodrik thinks change happens. To my mind it does not come from polite conversation at Ivy League Schools. It comes from people raising up and frightening elites into changing course. Once the people shock the elites into understanding that they will not be passive then progressive scholars Dr. Rodrik can work to guide the change in course with his ideas about a more just system to resolve the crisis. Absent the pain of social disruption Dr. Rodrik will have no chance to be an architect of our future. Wall Street interests will do that unconstrained. It surprises me that he takes aim at Klein. They should be partners.

Triple

Maybe one day some liberal economist will consider the most evident way to judge people's happinness in countries with low standards according to their analysis : emigration.

seth edenbaum

Don't oversimplify. The romantic foibles of comfortable leftists deserve as much mockery as they can draw. But that mockery can turn easily into mockery of the workers themselves. And that, taken to the level of absolute contempt, is embedded in the standard defense of neoliberal economic policy. Go there if you want to witness the celebration of other people's misery. Rodrik knows this (or he should). And if he'd focused on the distinction then there'd be nothing to take offense at; disagreement and offense not being synonyms. As it is his comments are more lazy more symptomatic of intellectual laziness than Klein's.
That's a problem no amount of mathematical calculation can solve.

Matías Vernengo

Funny thing is that she was right to be euphoric. Between 2002 and 2007 per capita GDP grew at 3.94%, and unemployment fell from more than 20 to less than 10%.

Sandro Perricelli

Matias,

A disingenious little comment, no?

Or perhaps you ignore that Argentina's recent boom sort of coincided with a commodity price boom...

I guess so, because it would take a lot intellectual dishonesty to make a statement about period growth rates where the period starts on a cyclical trough and ends at a peak, no? That would be very disrespectful to your readers, no?

(How about coming back in 3 years to figure out Argentina's growth rate from trough to trough? (My bet: not higher than zero))

The fact is that Argentina is now broke again (yes, that is a fact), and is now in full begging mode for a rescue line, it recently paid up to 15% interest rate in dollars for loans from their Bolivarian comrades from Venezuela -- because no private uncoerced player in the world is bat-shit crazy enough to charge less than 20%, its government has no credit at all so it recurrently uses coercive methods to milk resources from the private sector, its economy is entering a deep and probably long recession that is widely expected to generate another sovereign default and the list of tragedies could go further, because the people in charge are completely unaware of how the world works (yes, I know a few of them personally). A true idiocracy.

Bryce

I'd been told that if I came here, I would be exposed to deep and provocative thoughts.

Sorry, but 1 for 2 isn't good enough.

Given what Argentina had been through over the previous decades, why shouldn't Naomi Klein have been happy to see common people taking back their country?

If you want to explain why you think Klein's analysis of the Argentinian economy is bollocks, go ahead. We're all ears. But this is positively juvenile and slanderous.

My reading of the crisis of 2002 is that it was triggered by a mass panic by the global investing elite. They were able to yank the rug out from under the Argentinian economy due to the neo-liberal policies of the previous decades, which made it easy for investors to scurry away at a moment's notice.

The solution (a devaluation of Argentine currency) may have "worked" in the sense that it reined in inflation. But it seems to me that it was essentially a way of making all Argentinians suffer to pay off a quarter-century worth of debts which had been incurred mostly for the benefit of a small, wealthy elite.

I suppose that just makes Argentina "a nation of whiners."

Sandro Perricelli

Bryce,

What Argentina has gone through over the last several decades was not a plot from global elites or some bankers' cabal, but the result of a very dysfunctional political system whose raison d'etre is to tax away any productive activity and to redistribute the proceeds towards the Peronist political machine (imagine a country as corrupt as Chicago, except the corrupt politicians never go to jail).

Alas, the same political machine in power right now. Nothing ever changed... Property rights in Argentina are still a joke, politicians are still entitled to confiscate private wealth as they see fit, and smart hard-working and innovative Argentineans can mostly be seen there when visiting their relatives left behind on vacation from NY, London or Madrid.

Sad, sad country.

Anarcho

"Anarcho, it is more than clear that the "popular response" did not result in anything useful."

I would suggest you read Horizontalism: Voices of Popular Power in Argentina (http://www.akpress.com/2006/items/horizontalism). That way you may learn something...

Matt H

Strikes me that the economist is worried about a brief moment in time when the people realized, if only for a short time, that the economist-king wears no clothes.

Shudder to think that this might happen again, eh?

There is no rejoining in the economic poverty faced by millions in Klein's work. But Klein also does not dehumanize or delegitimize these people as worthless foot notes or numerical indicators - she writes about them as subjects, creators of their own potential, and "feels good" when people do not feel prisoners to the fabricated world of the economist and start constructing it for themselves. That "whiff of utopia" that Klein experienced is called democracy, economists should try it once.

Ulrich

Naomi Klein got it all wrong about Argentina. Her book in unreadable for anyone slightly familiarised with Argentine affairs. She cites as source many disreputable characters. Her book is full of people that are completely unknown for us. It is like writing about the USA and citing John Doe or Mary Toe as "influential social leaders". Complete nonsense. Her book, which has a chapter devoted to the 2002 crisis, passed almost unnoticed here, and criticised even by hard-leftists for its shabbyness and improvisation.

The "recovered factories" and the parallel economy of trade were insignificant, very few people found them useful, and is an experience that nobody remembers as a serious alternative. Around 2003 they were more expensive than normal shops, and were avoided by most people because of it being a pure lemon market.

In fact, Argentina returned to its political class in 2003, and remember that a 25% voted (shamefully) for Menem back then. He refused to go to the rerun against Kirchner, an old ex-ally of his. So that "change" that NK talks about is only in her head.

eee_eff

Dani:

I recall this last summer a weed started to grow in my backyard. The previous owner of the house, an older man who obviously believed in zero maintenance, had installed concrete pavers over almost the entire backyard. A weed started to grow in between the pavers which my son, being just nine, insisted we allow to grow. Not seeing any harm in this I allowed it to grow and it actually was a quite interesting plant--it developed flowers and was interesting for a while.

Naomi Klein sees the flowers and you see the pavement.

Who is more deluded? I would think a balanced view would take both into account.

I see nothing wrong with observing, and rejoicing in, the strength of the human spirit to overcome an unjust system.

mk

Seth, can you give a few examples of the mockery or contempt of workers exhibited by neoliberal economics? Thanks --

Mr. Todd

"They started to create something better than the system which caused economic collapse."

um, have you read any headlines from Argentina lately? and they have a huge debt coming due in the next few months, and they just nationalized private pensions so they can have a chance at paying it. golly what a difference!

...also, why is Naomi Klein so revered? Yea, her heart's in the right place, wish i could say the same for her brain. no economic training, or even literacy, and its obvious to people who have any. that she gets excited about such a basic human instinct everyone already knows about, the desire to seek comfort with other people in similar circumstances, says alot. well fine, did any of this lead to anything tangible, or influence economic policy?

I think what dani is trying to say is that for all the supposed excitement, there's just no 'there' there.

Sandro Perricelli

"Yea, her heart's in the right place"

That is highly questionable.
Her heart actually serves her really well, which allows her to have a yuppie life in Washington, DC, go places, know interesting people etc -- and all that while keeping all this moral superiority and self-righteousness that can only imply a Titanic-load of lack of self-awareness (bad metaphor, I am aware of that!).

Mr. Todd

ha, word to that.

http://mrbloggington.blogspot.com/2008/12/naomi-klein-gets-whiff-of-something.html

webbiest

Klein (and her vaguely anarchist ilk) are romantics. As such, they are anti-materialistic and crave community over individualism. They love chaos for reasons which are basically aesthetic: it offers excitement and unpredictability. No wonder she finds economic collapse thrilling. (I wonder if she thinks Zimbabwe is a great place right now...) Getting paid on time (in money that can actually buy stuff) is bourgeois and boring.

LDIS

The U.S. Great Depression may have been a disaster for almost all Americans. However, must of the left was indeed euphoric at the time. The conventional business oriented middle class (Babbitt's in parlance of the time) had been utterly discredited and the formerly marginalized intellectual class had attained vast influence.

Why should we be surprised that Naomi Klein loved Argentina in 2002?

Bryce

@LDIS : And look at the results. Social Security, massive investment in public works, rural electrification, ecological restoration. There was a sweeping change in public sentiment at the time, a new contract between government and citizen, that said government had a responsibility to protect its citizens against severe poverty.

In my mind, that shift was a progression towards a better nation, and "the Left" (whoever the hell they are) had a right to feel some optimism on that account.

Disagree if you want. Call the 1930s the era of the Silent Communist Takeover, or the decade that we threw away our lofty traditions of hard work and self-reliance in favor of a depraved nanny state. I think it's a stupid view, but at least there is room for honest disagreement.

But trying to paint your political adversaries as rejoicing in the poverty and suffering of others is not just reprehensible, it flies in the face of the facts.

Punditus Maximus

That really isn't fair. When the power went out in New York back in '03, I was inspired by the masses of people just calmly walking off the island, seeing to one another.

That doesn't mean I'm in favor of massive, citywide power outages. I just thought it was really awesome how people just kind of came together and handled it intelligently and with the tools at hand.

ricki

there is something extremely interesting about buenos aires. It is extremely easy to idealize it based on the fact that there is such a socialist- communal identity-probably based on the fact that those who founded the country-or rather gentrified it- were anarchists and socialists coming fleeing from afar and forming very close communities. The thing that is accurate about the statement made by Klein is that people are used to a deceptive and unstable milieu due to the government and economy and that greatly influences their necessity and ability to congregate and form support systems.

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Later in the same New Yorker article, the author writes:

Klein never tempers her arguments in search of converts from the center; she rallies her base. She’s not interested in making the left part of the mainstream; she wants to convince the left that it doesn’t need the mainstream.

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Some things are not very hard to understand :
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Ah, by the way, the inspiring barters and square meetings lasted less than a semester, with 0 concrete impact. As soon as the economy recovered thanks to the real depreciation all the calls for change were over.


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And if he'd focused on the distinction then there'd be nothing to take offense at; disagreement and offense not being synonyms.

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