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May 23, 2010

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Puhleese. You are son in law of Dogan :). Now you can cry a river.

Umit Erdal

What do you mean by "islamist groups" exactly? I don't understand how those "fabricated cases" benefit islamist groups.

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Seriously, how possible is it to be a retired four-star general in Turkey like Çetin Doğan and not be a party to war crimes against Turkish citizens due to the dirty war?

Now, it is always possible to frame a guilty man, but it would be useful to frame this in the context of the well-known and possibly continuing crimes of the Turkish armed forces against the Turkish people.

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Mert Talay

Rodrik's handling of the case (just because he happens to be the son-in-law of the general accused of military coup) is despicable. What is more irritating, however, is the amount of attention he (and his wife) is getting from the media due to his academic clout.

Even a cursory reading of his website in Turkish reveals that his arguments are mostly baseless: He points out to some 'inconsistencies' in a large amount of documents and concludes that these inconsistencies show that the documents are not real. Now, the assumption here is that the Turkish army always produces consistent documents, which is far from being true. Anyone who is a little bit familiar with the Turkish military knows that they are largely incompetent and sloppy (In the most recent military engagement in Cyprus, Turkish jets bombed and sunked their own destroyer). Thus, if Rodrik examines some genuine documents of Turkish military he would also find numerous inconsistencies. The fact that there are some inconsistencies in the documents does not prove that they are fake. But, heck, the point is to save our father-in-law, who cares about integrity!

Dani Rodrik

Dear Mr Talay

I wonder if you really looked at the evidence that we have presented. Our case is not based on sloppiness or minor inconsistencies in the documents. It is based on timing errors that cannot be explained other than by the conclusion that the documents are forged. Things like mention of organizations that were not founded until much later, extracts from speeches that were not delivered until several years later, and allegations of authorship of documents when the alleged author was out of the country. If you have reasonable explanations for these and the other problems that we note, then we would like to hear about them. If you are simply interested in casting aspersions on an ad hominem basis, well then, there isn't much to say.

reg

Didn't your father-in-law immediately acknowledge having authored the Sledgehammer document after its emergence?

Mert Talay

Dear Mr. Rodrik,

Three points:

1. In your website, you devote a large amount of space to point out that the sledgehammer plan is a compilation of different documents (e.g. 1980, 1997, 1998 government plans). I wonder what this is supposed to show. It is quite logical that the writes of the sledgehammer plan would use previous documents to construct part of the coup plan, especially for the parts that are in essence nonsense (like "Ataturk'un onderliginde kurulan laik, demokratik, hukuka bagli Turkiye Cumhuriyeti Devleti..."). Given that such parts of the plan are just for the purpose of propaganda, it makes perfect sense that the writers of the coup plan have scanned previous documents and borrowed parts which they liked. Your claims about the 2005 National Economy Congress are more interesting but why don't you consider the reverse possibility, i.e. that the NEC borrowed parts of the text from Mr. Dogan -or from some of his associates? After all, both Mr. Dogan and the organizers of the NEC share the same ideological view (national socialism - 'ulusalcilik') and thus it is possible that they have collaborated. Thus this portion of the 'evidence' you present is quite weak.

2. TAI vs. TUSAS controversy. This is the kind of sloppiness that I point out. As you concede, TAI was a joint venture of TUSAS (which in turn is owned by a foundation close to the army) in 2002 so it is possible that the writers of sledgehammer have used TAI instead of TUSAS in their documents due to sloppiness. Why do you assume that they are perfectly cautious and should have used TUSAS instead of TAI?

3. The controversy about CDs 11 and 17. You find the usage of 'save as' command in the preparation of the documents questionable. I have no clue about how this 'evidence' points out to fraud. As an academic, I use the procedure you mention (taking a previous document word document, deleting all the contents, putting new content, and saving with the save as command into a new directory) all the time because it simply saves time (by keeping the format of the previous document). Why this practice is questionable for you is something that I do not understand.

Admittedly, you have more concerns about the documents, but I neither have the time nor the resources to check the validity of your other claims. But given that you are not impartial in this issue, I cannot take them at face value. In a few instances where I can personally assess the plausibility of your claims (as above), I think they are due to the sloppiness of the writers of the plan. As a relative of a military officer, I have spent a quite long time in military complexes (such as 'orduevi', 'kisla) so this incompetence of the writers do not surprise me at all.

Dani Rodrik

Dear Mr. Talay

First, thank you for actually checking our evidence and thinking about at least a few of our arguments. One of the greatest difficulties I have encountered is that most people have very little interest in a fact-based examination of the case and are ready to pronounce individuals guilty based on what they read in highly misleading press accounts.

As for the evidence, I think the verbatim inclusion of text from a 2005 speech is pretty conclusive. You really need to jump through all kinds of hoops to explain it away.

Even if you want to think that this piece of economic nonsense was produced by Cetin Dogan (and since I know his economic views, I know this is implausible), you would then have to presume that he or his associates passed this “highly secret” document describing preparation for a coup to the eccentric leader of a fringe religious group (the author of the 2005 speech), who happens to be someone who considers Cetin Dogan a great enemy! (This is because he believes he was persecuted during the February 28th period.) And to top it off, you have to believe that this person would then use extracts from this secret document in a public speech he gave. I mean, come on.

There are other compelling pieces of evidence like this in the PowerPoint presentation that we put together--for example, the reference to an association that was not founded until 2006, and the alleged authorship of some documents produced by an officer when he was outside the country. Then there are many other inconsistencies, which I would call “corroborating evidence,” or “supporting evidence”—and these are the ones that you focus on.

When you put it all together, and consider that the only real “evidence” that these documents were produced in the 1st Army during 2002-2003 is the date and author information on the CDs (which are easily manipulable), you do have to, at a minimum, seriously question the charges.

Dear reg:

No, Cetin Dogan did not at any time acknowledge authorship of the Sledgehammer document. He acknowledged that the voice recordings from the 1st Army simulation planning exercise were authentic. These recordings make no reference to the Sledgehammer coup plot, or any of the other criminal activities referred to in the Sledgehammer documents and with which he is being charged. The voice recordings are authentic; the Sledgehammer coup documents are not.

Umit Erdal

Let me remind you another "complicit in the massive perversion of justice that is taking place in the name of democratization":

The General Staff of Turkish Military gave a memorandum to the government and assembly on 27 April 2007. In this memorandum they said that anybody who is not ethnically Turkish is the enemy of the Republic -in Turkish: "“Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!” anlayışına karşı çıkan herkes Türkiye Cumhuriyeti’nin düşmanıdır". (See: http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Nisan_Genelkurmay_Başkanlığı_Basın_Açıklaması or http://www.tsk.mil.tr/bashalk/basac/2007/a08.htm)

The memorandum also says that "TSK gerektiğinde tavrını ve davranışlarını açık ve net bir şekilde ortaya koyacaktır" which means in English: "army will show its attitude and behavior in a clear and sharp manner when the time comes".

Do you think that this memorandum was another complicit of the islamist government?

How would the army show its attitude in a sharp way? Is this a threatening or respectful declaration towards the democratic system?

Don't you think that all the citizens of the Turkish Republic should be equal regardless of their ethnic origin?

Last question: Can the General Staff of USA publish this kind of memorandum against the government and the assembly?

Dani Rodrik

Dear Umit

I am against all kinds of ethnic discrimination, and would certainly not support any activities designed to harm or harass minorities. I think that Kurdish minorities have suffered great injustice in Turkey, and the sooner we redress those the better. I am also against military coups, and think that the military should stay out of politics. I do not think the 2007 memorandum was appropriate, and I believe it should not have been issues.

But I do not think the way to redress old and current injustice is to create new kinds of injustice.

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Turkey is being taken over by the Islamists and they will destroy what Ataturk built. They will soon be our enemy, it's best we prepare now for the inevitable.

Account Deleted

Dear all,

I am sorry to see so much misunderstanding that profits directly to the current government plans. I believe the economy reforms started under Mr Dervish monitoring are one of the reasons of the relative good shape of the country. On a micro level I disagree with the government. The "wellfare" improvement counted in USD is more due to the fall of the reference currency than to the actions of Mr Erdoğan's team. "Ne Mutlu Türküm Diyene" is not a reference to a specific ethnicity but to a nationality, this is all different and European politicians do not or do not want to understand it, see what they did to the (ex-)Yugoslavia after Tito. There are forces that do not want to see Turkey in Europe so they prefer support a "mid" religious government sliding slowly toward Iran and being an excuse to reject us than a western oriented and democratic one that they will be forced to accept. The same guys close their eyes when a terrorist pass by since destabilizing the region seems a profit for them (need sell oil for weapons).
I am glad we have a brand new CHP to fight for us, and with our support, at the next elections. I heard many secular friends fooled by the nice discourses of the prime minister and giving their vote to his party for the last poll.
I do not think a weak and non-secular non-democratic Turkey will be of any good to anyone. By the way I am happy to be a Turkish Citizen only since 2000.
Wish peace for all of us

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Me again, sorry I forget a point, The Turkish Army has a specific role since contrary to most western forces its role is not to defend the nation but also to defend democracy and secularism. Now we can discuss if this is good or not but it is the role of the army actually, so the Generals have a political role, yes. This is why the US chief of staff don't (even if he think it loud) and the ours do. Argue about it has to be changed but actually this is a major difference.

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"but also to defend democracy and secularism"

Dictatorships do not defend democracy.
Erdogan has opened up the country, not closed it. Rodrik is defending the Modernism of the Shah over the modernism of the reformers in Iran, who are Islamic. Reform comes from below not above.

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Tayyip erduan and his party are destroying the Atatürik legacy. It's only a matter of time before the people of Turkey will be isolated from the western world and forced to live under the laws of the Sharia.
If memory serves me, the last time the democracy was used to end democracy was in 1933 when the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazi Party)came into power in Germany.

The rational people of Turkey need to wake up before it is too late.

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Given the scope of the deception, we have come reluctantly to the conclusion that the government is at a minimum complicit in the massive perversion of justice that is taking place in the name of democratization.

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We have been losing the most valuable brilliant turkish citizens, most of them are still in prison.

Tell me why Prof. Dr. Haberal was also "inside the cell" along with many journalists and authors.

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