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You don't come here for this kind of stuff, but if you are interested in Turkey, you should read this. And if you also happen to read Turkish, you should then turn here.
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Being Greek, I used to think I was pretty knowledgeable on the very, very unique nature of Turkish politics. It seems like I thought wrong - this is above and beyond anything expected. Best of luck.
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April 06, 2010 at 10:59 PM
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Thank you for sharing the article. I'm really sorry to hear this, I wish you and your family a lot of strength.
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April 07, 2010 at 11:41 AM
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April 07, 2010 at 05:25 PM
One would think there would be more mobilisation on the economics blogosphere about the issue, at least by Rodrik's colleagues, like Mankiw, who seems busy arguing that Americans pay lots of taxes per capita, and that Harvard admissions are difficult. This is disappointing to say the least, especially from people with access to really high places.
April 08, 2010 at 03:47 PM
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Neden bahsettiginizi anlamadim. Hic bir seyi sansurlemis degilim.
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April 09, 2010 at 11:05 AM
Peki Dani Bey,
Sadece bugunku Taha Kivanc yazisina link vermistim. Linkin once yayinlanip sonra olmadigini gorunce o yorumu yazdim. Belki sonradan spam'e dusebiliyorsa, tepkimden dolayi kusura bakmayin.
O yaziyi okumussunuz, blogunuzdan anladim.
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Thank you for your post and for the carefully reasoned analysis in your article to which you link. I'm so sorry that you and your wife are facing such a personal challenge and wish you and your father-in-law the strength to carry on and ultimately prevail in this frightening situation.
We need to understand more about Turkey and how the U.S. should respond (not just by ignoring the matter, I hope!) to what may be a pattern of fomenting pro-Islamic fervor, not just abusing its own citizens.
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Dear Dani, Dear Pinar,
Try to leave aside your family ties for once (because, you two are not only family members; being intellectuals, you are supposed to be more than that), and recall General Dogan talking, explaining himself for only a couple of minutes in any of his recent TV interviews. You will hear instantly his deep contempt for the lives and values of millions of people in Turkey. How can you not hear that, when he opens his mouth, despite the conspicuous effort to remain calm, composed and appear politically correct? I can understand your concern for the man who is family. But think of the countless number of people who perished and suffered under either the direct rule or the influence of the military in Turkey over decades. (One of those was my brother, who suffered unspeakable cruelty for more than a year in the immediate aftermath of the 1980 coup.) Pinar, you know your father, be honest and admit, would he not have loved to be in control and run the country the way Evren did if he had the chance?
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April 13, 2010 at 05:32 PM
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April 13, 2010 at 10:36 PM
I read your article and I must say it is really disappointing that you went out of your way to defend a military coup planner because he is a member of your family. But that is your choice and you naturally have a right to make one.
Turkey has gone through 4 military coups in the last 50 years. Hundreds of people have been executed without fair trials after these military coups. How can you put a title to your article which says "manufactured coups?" when we have gone through 4 of them already? What is so shocking to think they might have planned a 5th one? They have been publicly threatening an elected government anyways since 2002. You could have chosen to bring the case of several Turkish and Kurdish civilian politicians who were tortured in military jails between 1980 and 2000? But you chose to bring a coup planner's case by using your academic influence. Our choices in life define our character. You have made your choice, Dani. I think you will regret this in time.
At last, our government has stood up in a political sense against these coup leaders. I am hopeful. I hope our military does not plan so called "war scenarios" against our neighbours, because our government is choosing to make peace with them. Any people are voting for them among a group of 20 parties. FYI, that is called democracy.
Civilian courts are now able to put only a small number of these coup planners in court. This has been only possible due to the changes in our law system that is supported by the EU integration process. Hopefully, further reforms will enable more to be tried. I hope these reforms will give them a fair trial, even though the smoking guns are still in their hands.
Kivanc Emiroglu |
April 14, 2010 at 06:57 AM
Please see the picture of Erdal Eren, who was only 16, and as such legally underage to be executed, and yet who was hanged by the coup in Turkey in 1980, staged by the likes of Rodrik's father-in-law, after his age was legally modified: http://didf.at/didf_tr/images/stories/rtemagicc_erdal_eren.jpg.jpg
And see the item on Erdal Eren in the Turkish wikipedia: http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdal_Eren
Numan Can |
April 14, 2010 at 05:11 PM
Çetin Doğan ve gerçekler sitesini kurarak kayınpederinizi savunmanız takdire değer. Yalnız sitedeki yazıları yorumlara kapatmak pek de demokratik bir davranış olmamış ve de çabanıza daha en baştan bir eksi puan olarak yansımış. Orası yorumlara kapatılmamış olsa şunları oraya yazacaktım. Şimdi mecburen buraya yazıyorum.
Savunmanız yayınlanan belgelerdeki çelişkilere kaldıysa işiniz hakikaten zor demektir. İnandırıcı olabilmeniz için de sizin benzer çelişkilere düşmemeniz gerekir. Oysa son yazınızdaki (http://cdogangercekler.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/%e2%80%9coraj%e2%80%9d-kim-tarafindan-ve-ne-zaman-yazilmis-olamaz/) bir teziniz 2 dakikalık bir araştırmayla çöküyor. Şöyle demişsiniz: "...Şubat 2003’de yazıldıgı iddia edilen bu belgede Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi “AK Parti” olarak geciyor, “AKP” olarak değil. Gazetelerin arşivlerini tararsanız, o dönemde “AK Parti” ifadesini göremezsiniz." Hafızam tersini söylemesine karşın yine de bu dediğinizin doğru olup olmadığını merak edip Türkiye'nin en büyük gazetesi Hürriyet'in sitesinde bir tarama yaptım ve daha ilk adımda o döneme ait şu yazıyla (http://arama.hurriyet.com.tr/arsivnews.aspx?id=130752) karşılaştım. O döneme ait daha bunun gibi yüzlerce yazı var. AKP mi yoksa AK Parti mi tartışması, birkaç yıl önce bazı köşe yazarlarının ve siyasetçilerin AK Parti kısaltmasına farklı bir anlam (AK = beyaz, temiz vb) yükleyerek bu kısaltmayı kullanmamaya özen göstermelerinden, kısa bir süre önce de başbakanın buna anlamsız bir tepki göstererek "Eğer kısaltma kullanacaksanız partime AK Parti diyeceksiniz" diye bir çıkış yapmasından kaynaklandı. Sanırım sizi de bu yanıltmış. Oysa ondan önce de AKP'ye AK Parti diyenler vardı. Nitekim Hürriyet'in arşivindeki taramada AK Parti kısaltmasının partinin kurulduğu dönemden beri kullanıldığı görülüyor. Buradan hareketle yazılarınızda biraz daha dikkatli olmanınızı tavsiye ederim.
April 15, 2010 at 08:50 AM
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Suçlanan kim? Çetin Doğan.
Suçlayan kim? Belli Değil ya da "onurlu bir subay". Doğan kendi savunmasını balyoz darbe planı belgesinin sahte olduğunu anlatarak yapıyor..Ve gerekli doneleri sunuyor. Peki ne olacak? Doğan'ın, belgelerin sahte olduğunu ispatlaması isteniyor; o da bunu ispatlamaya çalışıyor. Peki iddia sahipleri ne yapıyor?.. Belgeyi Taraf gazetesine veren subayın deşifre edilmesi, subaya belgenin gerçekliğinin ispatı konusunda eninde sonunda danışmak gerekmeyecek mi? Yoksa Çetin Doğan'ın sonsuza kadar savunma mı yapması istenecek??
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I have been trying to symphatize with Rodrik, only due to his family relationship with Dogan, until I read his interview in Turkish daily Milliyet. One can just ignore the subjective comments made by Rodrik if he were not a renown professor of economics. However, we have the right to ask for a minimal level of impartiality from an influential figure like Rodrik even in a family matter.
Rodrik is deliberately focusing on some of the inconsistencies in the process of prosecution to give the readers the idea that none of the accusations on Dogan is grounded. Although I might agree with him on the validity of some of the evidence in Dogan's case, these observations are far from being enough to refute the claims.
Cetin Dogan has confirmed the authenticity of the recordings of his talks during a seminar that took place in the army. The below is a translation of a piece of this talk that he confirmed in Turkish Haberturk TV. This seminar is attended by a great number (if not all) of the senior officers of the army and its purpose is to discuss a war scenario. I want to ask Rodrik, and you all, if there is any slight possibility in a western democracy that the army officials will discuss in how to overthrow an elected government in a war scenario. Having read the below extract, how one can still claim that the prosecutors have gone out of their ways to accuse Cetin Dogan, who is a general in an army with a history of coups, with coup planning.
I hope Dani Rodrik will put an end to this hopeless effort and do not ruin all his academic integrity that he has build in many years by defending a coup planner.
And, finally, here is the translation of a part of Dogan's speech in that seminar:
"Our colleagues brought to our attention the issue of how to ensure national solidarity in our country. Achievement of this solidarity can only be obtained via a convincing government. A government who uses religion cannot achieve this as people have different beliefs. For this reason Ataturk emphasized the national solidarity.
The government and the parliament have to restore its position. I will ask the Commander-in-chief to warn the government and given an ultimata. Our future is in s..t and some measures have to be taken. We first need a national unity government to establish our solidarity. When the time comes, this government will lead the country to elections.
Of course, this is a solution in the scenario that we are discussing. (In a somewhat ironic manner) I'm not suggesting you should do this now (Cetin Dogan and the other participants laugh at this point). We are already making our suggestions to the current government, which I do not want to share with you right now. However, the action I just outlined is the way to go in such a situation."
Umut Cetin |
April 20, 2010 at 05:18 AM
Wow, it looks like Mr. Rodrik has struck a vein with a certain group of Turks who all seem to respond with identical responses.
Nowhere does Dani defend the past military coups. Those arguing against Mr. Rodrik seem to be motivated by revenge against the military for past coups-- not by seeking justice.
he is simply saying that instead of using the courts for political revenge, if Turkey is to really consolidate its democracy, the justice system must be just. It must observe its own rules. Including sharing evidence with defendants, and throwing out clearly manufactured "evidence" like the documents that contain "facts" before they occurred.
Dr. Rodrik cites instances were he has first-hand knowledge of politically motivated prosecution using false evidence.
Umut argues that he is picking only the evidence that is false, but Rodrik's argument is that is the only evidence he has seen.
You cannot ask for more or less than a fair prosecution. Otherwise Turkey is trading one form of dominated government (by the military) for another (by AKP loyalist prosecutors.)
April 21, 2010 at 03:38 PM
- I want to remind everyone of the fact that C. Dogan is Mr. Rodrik's father in law.
- Hilmi Ozkok, chief of staff at the time Cetin Dogan was in the army, accused Dogan of plotting a coupe. There are a ton of documents and voice recordings showing what was going on.
- Had it not been to General Ozkok's foresight and efforts to undo Dogan's plans, today we in Turkey would be living under army rule.
- Mr. Rodrik, keep yourself occupied with your academic 'economics', and building models.
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April 21, 2010 at 09:58 PM
Dani is not only asking for a fair prosecution. In his interview at the daily Milliyet, he is favouring Cetin Dogan's motives. Cetin Dogan recently publicly admitted the voice recordings and the war scenarios. These war scenarios, as his voice recordings clearly outline, plan to overthrow an elected government. Umut has translated them word by word in this blog. These are not my words, not Umut's words or anyone else's, these are Cetin Dogan's words and he accepted them on live TV. What is so hard to comprehend here?
No arguments, everyone has a right to a fair trial. Even a coup planner deserves a fair trial! Turkey has underwritten many international agreements. Cetin Dogan can take his case to an upper court and even to European Court of Justice. If Cetin Dogan can not get a fair trial, he has a lot of avenues.
It is premature to say that anyone putting ex-generals on trial is a government loyalist. The same law system cut the state support to AKP just two years ago!!! They were about to close down a party who were chosen by 47% of popular vote among 20 or so parties. What loyalists are we exactly taking about here?
However, the issue here is that there were probably potential wrong doings in Pinochet's trial as well. It is his lawyer's responsibility to voice them, not the responsibility of a Harvard economist. That is the reason why I and many others gave strong reaction to Dani. He is not only pointing our issues in prosecution, let us remember that. His motives are completely favouring the coup intentions of the Turkish military that has a proven track record of implementing military coups and interfering with the law system. They had hanged a prime minister and ministers with a Micky Mouse trial in the past! They executed hundreds of people in the past and they are not even apologetic about it.
Why the urge to become coup planner's lawyer now? Why label us as AKP loyalists when most of us have no organic relationship with any political party? I feel that this is Murdoch-style propaganda in action at Turkey.
Kivanc Emiroglu |
April 22, 2010 at 10:41 AM
You simply are favoring a coup planner's (Cetin Dogan) motives, who happens to be your father in law. It's a shame to see a Harvard economist crying for mercy for a coup planner.
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