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February 25, 2008

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Nilgun

Brilliant... I was flabergasted as I read the NYT this morning... Dani, please send it to NYT if you have done it already... You have an excellent point and the chart tells it all...

Nilgun

Brilliant... I was flabergasted as I read it this morning at the NYT. Dani, please send it to the NYT if you have already done so. You make an excellent point and the chart tells it all...

Frank

Interesting, but how do you reconcile big rises in productivity with declining earnings for workers with low education? Your implicit answer is that technological progress has acted as a substitute for low-skill workers. I buy that, but here are other alternatives. 1. The price deflators are wrong. After all, computers, videos, TVs, refirgerators, etc.. have dropped in price remarkably after adjusting for quality. This does not overcome the inequality (unless consumption patters differ) but it should lift all boats in real terms. 2. Immigration. Adding newly arrived immigrants every year may dent the calculations somewhat.

JT

A "C"? What a generous grader you are!

Dani Rodrik

Frank--

The difference goes to capital. Read Levy's paper.

Frank

Yes, the difference goes to capital CONDITIONAL on the data one has. Yet better use of hedonic prices,etc... may alter the accounting identity.

Frank

Can we really say that the purchasing power of the low education workers has remained constant or declined slightly from 1980s in the face of increases in product quality, diversity, etc.

That would imply they have been trading down in relative (not absolute) quality ever since, so today poorer folk drive the equivalent of a 1980s Ford Escort, warts and all.

Maybe, but I'd like to see more meat on the bare statistics of income quantiles, etc.

Rob

Frank are you so used to throwing out that answer that even when it doesn't apply you'll still use it? Real GDP increased, even if the price deflator is wrong, capital would still be getting a much bigger share than previously.

Denis Drew

Two comments,
Michelle Obama entered Harvard -- left Chicago -- in 1985 I believe. Meaning she left Chicago just before it shed its significant white racism (significant meaning up to 50% of the whites had some taint; maybe 7% were serious racists) -- in my personal observation anyway.

In 1985, Harold Washington was elected mayor, here. That same week, black taxi riders began tipping drivers (me) -- half as much at first (I was formerly a Bronx/Harlem gypsy in case there is any question of my motives here) -- they finally started to feel "freakish" about not tipping; I guessed as in they were finally feeling they had something social to lose.

Over the next five years I sensed, though I cannot quite explain why (by now anyway) that Chicago's white racism was receding "backwards", that is: as the blacks cared less about white racism, whites reacted by feeling less racist. By, 1990 I no had to agree with my black riders from out of town that I wouldn't want to raise a black child here because it would grow up feeling too "different."

So that is the not so nice American experience that Michelle Obama started out with.

(Very ironically I now have run into racist blacks at about the same percentage as Chicago whites formerly were in the San Francisco/Berkeley area of all places. Super-sized Evanston: supposedly the most liberal whites in the country; actually the richest whites in the country who do absolutely nothing for their poor minorities [in S.F. they will vote for a high minimum wage if someone puts it on the ballot, heavy activists, not them -- but would never conjure up such an action on their own]. As a result when I get back to Chicago after a while there, I am afraid to talk to black people for two weeks: I cringe and wait to see if they will answer me back or pretend I don't exist (not embarrassing there; normal) -- I know better but after months of S.F./Berkeley it becomes a Pavlovian expectation. When you gonna best LBJ's minimum wage by $100/wk Berkeley?).
**************
If you go by an actual minimum needs budget (adjusted for current dollars) as found in the 2001 book Raise the Floor (minimum needs contrasted to the half the median income European poverty standard which definitely wouldn't be accurate here*, or America's farcical three time the price of an emergency diet poverty standard), the minimum needs of a family of four with a $10,000 health insurance bill is $41,000 -- not hugely off the median compensation for high schooled men in the chart above. If the median wage in America is such a near fit to a realistic family poverty standard we definitely may be doing something very wrong.

*According to p.121 of The State of Working America, 2006/2007: the median wage in America grew only 10% from 1973 to 2005 -- while the Census says per capita income grew about 70% (albeit while a lot more family members went to work).

robertdfeinman

The secret of neo-con rhetoric is that it unconstrained by any attachment to real data. Remember the quote about the administration making its own reality?

This is a characteristic of true ideological followers (what psychologist Robert Altemeyer calls the Right Wing Authoritarian personality type). Whatever doesn't fit their framework is ignored, dismissed with irrelevant counter arguments, or if that fails, then replaced by ad hominem attacks on those presenting the data.

Kristol is especially valuable to the neo-con leadership because he is a fool, but a witty one. He lacks the intellect to examine the data for himself and thus is the perfect conduit for the propaganda effort of the moment.

He can reframe a dry argument into a colorful piece and get it placed in a highly visible spot such as the NY Times or on one of the talking head shows.

The right seems to have a stable of them currently, including David Brooks and Ben Stein. The left needs better writers! They can't depend upon Comedy Central to do all the heavy lifting.

Peter

Dani, you can wear those C's as a badge of honor: you resisted Straussian indoctrination. Keep up the good work.

Frank

Rob--

You said "Real GDP increased, even if the price deflator is wrong, capital would still be getting a much bigger share than previously."

I said: "1. The price deflators are wrong. [..] This does not overcome the inequality (unless consumption patters differ) but it should lift all boats in real terms."

In other words I am questioning not the rise in inequality - there is no doubt about that - but the decline of real income of those with low levels of education. I am concerned about the absolute levels. Different prices would definitely affect that.

Now, we know there have been enormous increases in quality of many products. Suppose our price index over-estimates inflation by 3% p.a. (is that plausible? I DON'T KNOW but I'd like a good answer) and incomes of those with low educations rise by the same amount in nominal terms. Then the net effect is no gain in MEASURED real terms. My point is that since income gains are likely to have been small, they will easily be washed out by small errors in prices.

Anecdotally, TATA of India just brought to the market a $2,000+- car. At this pace of technological innovation you would need massive declines in nominal incomes to keep real incomes constant...

Alex

Anecdotally, TATA of India just brought to the market a $2,000+- car.

Which a) has been on sale for a massive week, b) isn't on sale in the US, and c) can't legally be sold in the US (or Europe, Canada, developed Asia, or Australia or New Zealand) because it doesn't meet crash-safety standards or air pollution standards.

Suppose our price index over-estimates inflation by 3% p.a. (is that plausible? I DON'T KNOW but I'd like a good answer) and incomes of those with low educations rise by the same amount in nominal terms. Then the net effect is no gain in MEASURED real terms.

"There's no evidence for that...but it is a *scientific fact*!"

Seriously, if the foundation of your argument is that absolutely all the measurements are wrong in the direction you would prefer them to be wrong and you have absolutely no evidence for this, you ought to shut up.

hari

Dani -

You can now start a new carrier in politic(al)s. More power to you...

Denis Drew

Frank,
Technological deflation improves the value of incomes that have grown faster than inflation, too -- not just the folks left behind by what is gently called "inequality" (I prefer Great Wage Depression!). The true question is not whether "flying cars" for the same price will put those left behind by economic growth (or even inflation!) ABSOLUTELY better off -- but whether they are relatively better off (that is the question to THEM anyway :-]).

It may be of great succor to me that we can have this conversation that would have been impossible 28 years ago -- not to mention HDTV for the same 600 adjusted dollars -- but if I were still a Chicago cab driver I would literally be earning half as many of those adjusted dollars per hour as I did 28 years ago ( after starving the meter, building subways to both airports, opening up unlimited limos -- but did they have to add 40% more cabs? -- labor don't matter much here) I would also be missing neat vacations and investing in securities (no more responsibilities) that the job one time would have paid for. It's not about numbing poverty -- its about everybody making out.

In 1991, I read in BusinessWeek that McDonalds had 70% employee turnover every 90 days. As the fed minimum wage sunk to 1939 levels, $5.15/hr (v. $4.50/hr w/no tax) I observed the same happy Mexican faces year in and year out behind the counters, here and in S.F. (also Chinese out there). Now that the min wage here has moved up to about 50 cents short of Eisenhower's 1956 minimum, I actually see some American born faces showing up behind the counter (business has noticeably picked up too -- all from the third-world segment who may now be able to purchase what they serve occasionally).

It is not all about higher tech folks getting a greater share: docs' incomes dropped 7% from 1993 to 2005 as per capita income grew about 10%. Docs have to depend on the majority to pay them I guess; the ever richer don't have more livers or teeth to attend to.

Denis Drew

Frank,
Three reason why hedonics don't wash as far as I am concerned:

1) For people on indexed incomes, we cannot cut back on their potato money because they may obtain a better TV (or "flying cars") for the same price).

2a) Only God could compute a sensible "unified" inflation number for my modern Timex being X? many better than the Timex of my 1960 youth for half the price;
2b) We humans could not make any sense out of the single number unless it were broken back out into the two original ones.

3) Since average income grows 15-20% every decade anyway, the sky wont look like it's going to fall (unless your name is Newt Gingrich) if we don't have a "philosophically" perfect inflation number (most of us can wait until we get to heaven). Don't worry; be happy (assuming everybody gets their fair share, of course).

pgl

That must have been a gentleman's C!

Charlie

Frank,

There is no way we could be off by really far like 3%. For one, there are lots of ways to measure prices. We can measure consumer prices, producer prices, we can look at wages, and we can look at interest rates.

Let's suppose that somehow prices each year were really 3% lower than the CPI said. How would companies be making profit? They'd have to be paying lower costs (or see huge increases in sales). So we'd have to see concurrent drops in prices producers pay like the PPI, wages and interest rates.

Think of what an investor would do, interest rates would have to be 3% higher here to attract capital. We'd also see lots more foreigners buying US products to benefit from our low prices.

There is just no way an error like that could happen and not be observed. It is true that electronic goods have seen dramatic decreases in prices over that time period. But to help your intuition, it might help to think about the other areas of consumption. Computer power has gotten very cheap very rapidly, but other things haven't, things like labor, raw materials, agriculture. Where are prices rising? Labor intesive sectors like medical care and education are seeing big price rises. Housing has seen a modest price increase (price to rent, price to own saw major increases due to asset bubble). And energy and food stuffs have seen price increases.

Average all this stuff out and you get moderate inflation, which all the indices agree on.

Charlie

Arnold Kling

Bill Kristol is wrong on a lot of economics, but he is more right than Rodrik and Frank Levy on this one. Listen to the podcast at www.econtalk.org with Russ Roberts and Thomas Sowell.

Carter

I wonder if the decline in compensation for high school graduate men you're upset about is in someway related to the mass immigration of low skill workers that you're in favor of?

Bernard Guerrero

"So statistics aside, who do you think has a better sense of what has happened to "regular folk" since 1980?"

I take it that we're supposed to use the population of non-college-grad males as our touchstone for "regular folk"? :^)

Bernard "Irregular" Guerrero

Jacob Rus

As a student currently taking both Mansfield’s political theory course, and gov. sophomore tutorial, and writing papers on both the Federalist and Machiavelli in the next few days (both courses with the same awesome-so-far, but-we’ll-see-how-the-paper-grades-go, graduate student tutor/teaching fellow), this post seems particularly relevant. :)

Kristol is a predictable clown though, and it’s a wonder the New York Times would honor him with a column. Safire at least wrote well, and occasionally said something interesting. Every Kristol column I've seen so far has been both ploddingly dull stylistically, and stupidly argued.

Jacob Rus

And I suppose that's a dangling modifier … C- for me.

JRip

"Now in almost every empirical respect, American lives have in fact gotten better over the last quarter-century."

Sounds like neither Kristol or Rodrik is fully, completely wrong.

What has gotten better?
1. all sorts of goods and services BOTH cost less and do more than 25 years ago.
2. Life expectancy is better.
3. Personal computers - Apple-Mac & MS-PCs
4. Mobile phones
5. FAX machines
6. The Internet came out of the government/military into the rest of the world.
7. Communism in the USSR went kaput and China became a market economy.


and DR correctly points out that wealth distribution skewed toward the rich.

and BK worries about Islamic terror and Iran but not so much the fate of the perpetrator of 9/11.

PS If you kept those "C" papers from your undergraduate days I wonder what grade you might get if you submitted them anonymously to other graders.

Jacob Rus

Also worth noting—I'm with Michelle Obama: This is certainly the first time in my lifetime that I've felt proud and hopeful about American presidential politics.

RW

The assumption necessary to right-wing arguments such as Kristol's is that everyone has access to the same hedonic improvements, that everyone has the same range of choice, can substitute in comparable ways: Is it really necessary to state the obvious, that they do not and can not.

But then economics is not really Kristol's primary concern here: Given his role over the years it seems far more likely that the real goal is to further develop the grounds for a concerted attack on progressive policies generally and what seems likely to be their iconic representative in the next election, the Obamas.

The only time neocons like Kristol are likely to focus on the specific rather than the generic is when they assassinate personalities.

Mark

Kristol said "in almost every empirical respect". He did not say "in every empirical respect". To counter this you have given only one measurement out of many. So you have not proven him wrong and you still get a C.

bsetser

I also got a C on an essay or two in Mansfield's political theory class. Not quite as well-known a teaching fellow though. But I do feel like I am in far better company now.

remo williams

Notice that this graph shows only men. If you looked at only women, you would see more gains.

And using men and women would skew the above graph less.

Since when are we only concerned with men? Why hide half the data?

albrt

I am about the same age as Barack Obama, and this is the second time in my adult life that I've seriously considered being proud of my country. The first time was in 1992 when Bill Clinton was elected despite taking some stands that seemed pretty bold for a DLC candidate. But then the Clintons screwed the pooch and lost Congress almost immediately, so I was never really very proud about that election.

We'll see what happens this time.

I have, by the way, been proud of small segments of the country such as my infantry platoon, but I can't think of when I've ever been really lastingly proud of any collective larger than about 100 people.

Steve

It would seem to me that a greater proportion of the population has college degrees and graduate degrees today than in the 1980s. If that is the case, human capital is also rising. Without holding education constant, I think it likely that median compensation for the population is rising. Maybe Kristol's economics isn't so bad after all.

William Donelson

INeo-Cons - They LOVE "America", but hate Americans.

IMPEACH CHENEY and his stooge, BUSH. Convict them and Send them to prison!

Ben

Frank,

I understand what you're suggesting, but "better off," is significantly different than "better absolute income." If you've taken a look at Michael Marmot's work, you'll see that discrepancies in income within a developed nation have deleterious effects on overall, absolute well-being for those on the bottom end. I think we're all really interested in well-being and we're using income as a proxy. Anything that exacerbates the gap in income, (and based on the figure, I think we can safely say the gap has been exacerbated) would have larger deleterious effects on over-all well-being as manifested by a number of physical and mental health indicators. Which is to say: just because you can buy a better car now than you could 20 years ago doesn't mean you're actually better off, it just means you have a better car. Or maybe, put differently: money can't buy you love, especially if the other guy can still buy a bigger bouquet.

Ben

pgl

If folks don't realize what Arnold Kling is promoting, it's Economic Facts and Fallacies by Thomas Sowell. Sowell has long tried to promote the rightwing view that a rising tide lifts all boats. Simply because Sowell says so does not mean one can simply dismiss the work of others. Read both for yourselves and then judge.

pgl

If folks don't realize what Arnold Kling is promoting, it's Economic Facts and Fallacies by Thomas Sowell. Sowell has long tried to promote the rightwing view that a rising tide lifts all boats. Simply because Sowell says so does not mean one can simply dismiss the work of others. Read both for yourselves and then judge.

jmdesp

What about signal theory ?

If most people today are at least college graduates compared to 1980 (or if many who did not get high school graduation do now), you can not directly compare 2008's high school graduates with 1980's high school graduates, because they are not the same population.

I don't know about the US, so I can't tell, but it would be a very significant difference in France.

Mr. Moa

For the past several years, I have worked under the assumption that everything that William Kristol says is wrong and it has paid off handsomely. But I do have a question: Aren't people getting more education these days and if so, isn't the profile of someone with only a high school degree in 1980 a lot different than someone in 2008?

pat toche

For those worried about the proper use of price indices, check out Robert J. Gordon's work, an (if not "the") expert in the area. He happens to have a very recent paper on inequality in the US,

http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/economics/gordon/
BPEA_RJGrevision_final_070904.pdf

Allow me to copy part of the abstract:

This paper provides a comprehensive survey on six aspects of rising inequality: changes in labor’s share, inequality at the bottom, inequality at the top, labor mobility, inequality in consumption as contrasted to inequality of income, and international differences in inequality, particularly at the top. Outside the scope of this paper are changes in the rate of return to higher education, the evolution of the college wage premium, and the mechanisms by which family human capital is transmitted to children.

We conclude that changes in labor’s share play no role in rising inequality of labor income; by one measure labor’s income share was almost the same in mid‐2007 as in 1950. Within the bottom 90 percent as documented by CPS data, movements in the 50‐10 ratio are consistent with a role of decreased union density for men and of a decrease in the real minimum wage for women, particularly in 1980‐86. There is little evidence on the effects of imports, and an ambiguous literature on immigration which implies a small overall impact on the wages of the average native American, a significant downward effect on high‐school dropouts, and potentially a large impact on previous immigrants working in occupations in which immigrants specialize.

Let me copy a Michelle Obama related comment from the article, "A black person born in the bottom quintile of the income distribution has a 42 percent chance of staying there as an adult, as opposed to an only 17 percent chance for a white person. Overall, the results for intergenerational mobility are similar to those for individuals—people who begin life with low income are likely to stay that way, and this has changed little over time."

Mark

For those of us not able to attend Ivy League schools and doomed to negative income growth I ask, what happened to the supposed A-B curve? Isnt a "C" akin to outright failure...Jacob any comment on that one?

corvad

i just, I just can't not respond when people use things like the cost of televisions
on the plus side of the ledger: might as well use Big Macs (I know, i know, economists do have a big mac index). and one thing to point out about the cost of "mobile phones" is that they are rising -- my phone plan with Tmobile, which I've kept three years after a one year contract, is cheaper than any I could sign up with today, although my texting capability has been taken away. the phone sales guy tells me it's because the new infrastructure for handling more data over the phoneways is expensive due to the convenience of being able to get online, etc. I told him I don't need my phone to be online, I need my phone to be on the phone.

so, how about those cheap electronics and big macs in in comparison with
health insurance,education, transportations, and housing -- ie what people have to spend their money on to stay afloat or alive ...

and if we're going to count communism's "kaputness" along with China's "market economy" (wtf?) then on the bad ledger let's remember that the US has become the world leader in incarceration rate per capita, and that a male African American child born today can expect
not Jim Crow
but a one in three chance
of going to prison ... (was 1/20 30 years ago).

Tom Myers

I'd like to know how solid it is that "for a high-school graduate, the odds that his compensation would have fallen by more than 10% is 50-50". Your graph is compatible with that, but does not force it. I believe it's also compatible with a world in which
(a) every high-school graduate's compensation has been rising, but
(b) new immigrants (disproportionately ill-educated and ill-paid although better-paid than they were before) bring down that curve, and
(c) education is increasingly a separating signal, in that the sort of kid who in 1980 might have stopped with decent job prospects after high school will now, because of (b) and self-reinforcing (c), tend to get a college degree eventually. The "high-school only" category is, in this world, occupied by those who are either new entrants or who really couldn't handle even easily-available junior colleges -- which was not the case in 1980.

I'd say that (a) is obviously unrealistic, but how far? Are (b) and (c) obviously wrong? What should I read, besides things like http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=782634 for immigrant education level and http://www.minneapolisfed.org/pubs/region/07-09/wages.cfm for general wage-stagnation notes?

o

Dani,

I know you said fringe benefits are included, but do the numbers behind that graph include government transfers like EITC, food stamps, etc? If you included government transfers how different would the story look?

If government transfers like the EITC are the best way to help make the working poor "better off", but we never include them in our calculations of welfare over time, then we would not see improvements under even most generous policies.

Imagine next year the EITC is increased such that it doubled earnings for the bottom quartile. Surely a realistic depiction of how "well off" people were should reflect that change, but, if I am correct about gov't transfers, the above graph wouldn't.

Alonso Quijano

Your KSG short bio says you graduated summa cum laude from Harvard. How is this possible when you earned a c in this Kristol course? Does Harvard even look at grades when bestowing latin honors?

LFC (Harvard '79)

In the interest of full disclosure, don't you think you should acknowledge that virtually every other grade you received as an undergrad was an A (or some variant thereof)? I'm guessing, of course, but it's a reasonably informed guess. :) Great post; keep it up.

Noumenon

I'd like to point out that while only the green line looks like it has been doing badly since 1980, that line represents something like 2/3 of workers (since only 33% of the population has a bachelor's degree or better).

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